DOKAN 6/Dokan 06.iso/Webs/www.nausicaa.net/miyazaki/file-archive/m-and-t.interview

Internet Message Format | 1998-09-05 | 42KB

Date: Sun, 14 Apr 96 14:20:22 EDT
From: Ryoko Toyama <[e-mail]>
Subject: M&T Talk revised

 Hi, I revised 'M&T Talk' again, since I realized that many people
don't know that Shinchosha produced 'Grave', so I needed to clarify
that point.

 Thanks, as always.

 Ryoko

>From Kinema Jyunpo Special Issue: 'Miyazaki Hayao, Takahata Isao
to Studio Ghibli no Animation tachi'.  1995, No. 1166, July 16th.
Copyright: Kinema Jyunpo Sha, 1995.

Translated without permission for *personal entertainment purpose
only*. The translator is solely responsible for any mistranslation
or misunderstanding due to it.

(  ) is added by the translator to supplement the words to make
things easier to understand.

This is *not*, by any means, an accurate word for word
translation.  The translator simply does not have the capability,
the patience, or the dictionary for that (excuses, excuses ^^;;).

Many thanks to Brian Stacy for editing :).


Talks: Miyazaki Hayao vs Takahata Isao. 'Our thirty years: From
Toei Doga to Studio Ghibli'.  Interviewer: Nomura Masaaki.

'The Toei Doga era, when we were aggressive'

- Takahata-San joined Toei Doga (Toei Animation Studio) in 1955,
Miyazaki-San in 1963, so it's been thirty years since then.  And
it's been ten years since you established Studio Ghibli.  I want
to ask you about these years today.

Miyazaki (M) : It's not Paku-San's (Takahata-San's nickname) taste
to tell such things -laughs-, though it's the same for me, too.
He isn't that straightforward, either.

Takahata (T) : It's very difficult to tell people what oneself has
been doing just as it happened, as something important.

M: It's not that we don't get sentimental from time to time, but
it wasn't that big a deal.

- You two met in 1963.  Miyazaki-San joined Toei Doga at the age
of twenty three, and at twenty eight years old Takahata-San was
already working as a director's assistant.

T:  When we started working, there wasn't much animation, though
there was Disney in the US.  When I actually tried to do
(animation), it was like we hadn't done this, we hadn't done that,
well, I didn't think that way, but anyway, there were countless
things we hadn't done.  So, there were many things we had to do.
My life has been a very passive one, but it was like: if there was
a stone, we had to move it.

M: There were so many things we were doing without removing
stones.

T: And (we tried to do things) such as 'let's add this'.  It was a
time when we could do such things.

M: I entered into this industry because I saw works in the 1950s,
such as 'Cross-eyed tyrant' ('Le roi et l'oiseau' by Paul
Grimault. The animation classic made in France) or 'Snow Queen'
(The masterpiece animation from Russia).  I thought maybe I could
manage (to reach the level of) 'Hakujyaden' ('The Legend of White
Snake', the first color feature animation film in Japan made by
Toei Doga), but anyway, I thought they were far above, in terms of
what they tried to do, and what they accomplished.  We were, in
short, at the level of "Toei Kids' stuff". The gap between our
level and the works we were inspired by was too big.  We thought
how could we climb up there, or even if we couldn't, let's remove
the stones around us.  So, there were many things we had to do.

- And 'Horus' was where you wanted to reach.

T: It was not something to reach, but just a thing we tried to do,
but it became such a big fuss - laughs-.  In the beginning, we
thought it was worth doing, so we just jumped into it blindly.  We
didn't know how tough it was going to be.  We just proceeded
without knowing, or we could proceed (because we didn't know)....

M: The big difference between the time we were working at Toei
Doga and now is that the company still existed as an organization
(then).  The company told us various things, such as 'Kids would
love to see small animals' or 'Well, you say so, but unless you do
a well known classic story, tickets won't sell'.  So it was easy
for us to fight against the company.  But these days, it's
impossible to make (anime) while fighting against the company.
The foundation of these companies are so weak that we can't help
but understand their difficulties.

T: I don't know if we can say the same thing about the whole
industry of current TV and animation.  I wouldn't be surprised if
some young people emerge trying to overcome something which can't
be moved.  I don't think that's absolutely impossible.  But, when
we work at Ghibli, we have to work while also considering these
things.  Miya-San is working with everything on his back,
including the company.  So, it's really difficult.  It's totally
different from the time when we started our career.  We rebelled
against what had been done, and we could work with enough
enthusiasm even if that meant we were just removing stones, or
placing one or two stones.  On the contrary, now, Miyazaki animes
are so successful, so I can kind of understand why young people
feel it's so tough.

M: Well, you are forgetting about yourself -laughs-

T: But, that's basically it.  I don't mean that Toei Doga animes
at that time weren't successful, but I think the meaning (of them
for young people?) was different.  Young people sympathize when
they see Miya-San's works.  So, they have to start from that
point.  On the contrary, as Miya-San said, we had such works as
'Snow Queen' or 'Cross-eyed Tyrant' towering (over us), but they
were a bit far-off, so we could start without being captivated by
them.  However, they see the works we are making close-up, and
then they have to climb up, stepping on (our works).  I think that
might be tough.

- 'Horus: The prince of Sun' was Takahata-San's memorable debut,
and Miyazaki-San volunteered to work on it.  Was it easier for you
to approach what was towering?

T: Those which were towering weren't close to us, and there
weren't many.  But we could see that we could do such things with
animation, and this was the work worth doing.  The rest of it was
just step by step.

M: We thought a movie could do amazing things.  At that time, the
Japanese movie population was dramatically decreasing, but we
still had many inspiring movies, and we thought we were making
movies, not just animation, so we firmly believed that movies were
something in which we could express something.

T: As for the young people now, I thought it would have been
difficult and confusing for them since there is so much
information, but actually, it isn't so.  They choose only with
partial judgment since they can't delay choosing till they see the
whole picture.  And they are accustomed not to get irritated or
impatient about it.  And if someone they trust says 'that's good',
they respond really obediently.  But we were more impudent, and we
didn't appreciate anyone if we didn't think they were good, no
matter how famous they were or supposedly great.

M: We were indifferent toward such things, and we stuck to our
opinions, saying 'no, it isn't'.  I don't know, maybe we happened
to be that way, but both Paku-San and I were very aggressive -
laughs-. How about the young ones these days?

T: Well, after all, the movie industry is in the middle of a long
decline, so we can't simply compare now with our young days, but
we were able to denigrate whomever we wanted to really severely.
Speaking of aggressive, for example, the popularity of Japanese
movies wasn't so weak, so it wouldn't have tumbled even if we had
said 'Ozu's movie is nothing (Ozu Yasujiro is the famous Japanese
film director)'.  Because the movie industry was standing on its
own, we could attack a movie if we thought it wasn't good, no
matter how much everyone else said it was good.  We had those
kinds of conversations, not only among film critics, but also
among movie goers.  And movies weren't something which would be
broken by that.  Compared to back then, the responses are gentle
these days.  Critics, too, many of them are 'critics with love' -
laughs-.  Many of them try to find good points (in a movie)
because (those who made the movie) tried really hard.  I think
there is such a tendency.


'The work with Nakama (comrades, partners) who had the same
ambition'

- There are many young people who want to be animators.  What kind
of approach do they take?

M: When I ask them what they want to make, I can see that they are
apparently confused.  There is a gap between what they want to
make and what they have to make.  For example, some started
working (in this industry) because they had such fun watching TV
anime when they were kids, and they want to do that kind of 'Wow,
this is fun!' thing even if they don't get much praise, but they
also think they have to make some difficult movie after all -
laughs-.  They haven't decided their stance yet.  So, if they are
asked formally, they say that the difficult stuff is worth making,
but if I pressure them to tell the truth, they murmur 'Er, can't
we do worry-free adventure stories anymore in this era?'.  Though
they don't show their true colors that easily.

T: We didn't think 'we absolutely don't want to make anything but
this'.  We were able to go on because we were willing to work on
anything.

M: I said that we were aggressive, but we were able to think in
such a way that it's OK if it's not fun, cause we make (movies) to
depict humans, and the important thing is that the movie has a
meaning.  (We thought) if people won't see the movie, it's their
fault -laughs-.

T: I think what we accomplished with 'Horus' was that we were able
to make realistic expression, so that in the mob scene, it wasn't
just that there were a bunch of villagers, but that the villagers
were together doing something.  There had been no anime like that.
So, at least we expressed that, and there was a theme in the
expression.  So, we wanted to do such a thing, and actually did
it, working as a group.

M: It's still possible.  I think 'The Wing of Honneamiss' is the
proof of that.  Those who made it were amateurs in terms of
experience.  In their mid twenties, they made it by themselves
living and eating together, with no distinction between the work
and their private lives.

T: Now, thinking back, we were lucky since we had our Nakama who
shared the same ambition.  Now, people talk about 'Miyazaki and
Takahata' as a pair, but there were many Nakama who tried to
express (something) in animation.  In the unsatisfied situation
with low pay, heavy workloads, frustrations, and such things, we
talked with each other.  We had Nakama with whom we could talk not
only about the work we were doing, but also about other things,
and anime was made out of those (kinds of interactions).  It was
that kind of era.  Speaking from this experience, I think the
quick path to make a movie is first, to get Nakama.  Right now,
people are separated individually, and they are required to show
their individualities, more now than in the time when we were
young, but they can do it by looking for their values or the
direction they want to go, by confronting each other.

M:  If three talented people get together they should be able to
accomplish many things, and I think young people have the talents.
It's not like we had so much talent anyway.

T: The way we act hasn't changed much.  When I quit Toei Doga, I
didn't even think about going out alone.  Otsuka Yasuo San (the
animation director of 'Horus', 'Conan', and 'Castle of
Cagliostro'), who invited me, used to be my Nakama at Toei Doga,
and he was creating a very unique TV series called 'Mumin' at that
time.  When he asked me to come, I asked Miyazaki Hayao and Odabe
Youichi (the animation director of 'Heidi' and '3000ri') to go
with me.  This was my conclusion after I thought about how we
could utilize what we had been building up. Thinking back, it
might just mean that I was fortunate as a director because I was
always able to work with the talented people, but when I moved
there, I was thinking totally different things.  It was completely
out of comradeship.  It wasn't about 'I'.  I just thought that
'we' were going to make it by supporting each other.  I even
thought, if possible, we would endure for all our lives.

M: The feeling of 'one can only do so much' was really strong.

-There is no 'if' in history, but if Takahata-San made a movie
like 'Horus' now, I feel that it would have gotten attention from
inside and outside Japan, and it would have completely changed the
direction of your works after that.

T: Here is an energetic young man with a huge talent, named
Miyazaki Hayao. If that were to happen now, there should be many
offers, but at that time, there was nothing.  Absolutely nothing -
laughs-.

M: There was a short review in 'Kinema Junpo', and that was it.
So, the most important thing was whether we could do the work
which would satisfy ourselves.  There was no anime journalism yet,
and no one sent us a letter or anything, so the important thing
was whether one could have a sense of doing a somewhat better job
than before.  So there was no room for doubts.

T: At that time, no matter how hard one worked, only a limited
number of people got their names credited.  But now, even the
smallest job can get credited.  I think it's because of this era
appreciating individuals, rather than because of anime journalism.
There were the nine very important members who made the golden era
of Disney anime, and now 'the Nine Old Men' are famous, but at
that time, no one knew about them.  Right now, there is a very
distinctive functional job system in the US.  There are people who
write scripts, who write storyboards, who direct, and if an
animator said to the director that he wants to change something,
the director would say 'I'm not authorized to change it'.  There
is a very clear distinction among functions, and they have a
strong sense of rights.  Therefore, it is very difficult to
incorporate each member's various ideas and work together to make
an anime.

- It was the opposite at Toei Doga.

T: When I joined Toei Doga, they were preparing for 'Shonen
Sarutobi Sasuke' (the second feature film by Toei, a boy Ninja
story).  For example, a key animator in the project said to the
director, 'I think this is better', and after talking it over,
they decided to incorporate that idea.  It was natural for them to
do such things.

M: It was an ordinary thing.  In a meeting, 'Can I change the e-
konte (story boards) a bit?' 'Sure'. (An animator) drew small
squares on animation sheets, not e-konte sheets, and since he
didn't know the number of seconds (for the sequence to take),
'I'll take whatever seconds it'll require'.

T: Not all the people were working like that, though.  I think you
need a talent and a persuasive power after all.  In a certain
feature film, although Miya-San was just a rookie, he strongly
insisted and succeeded in adding a certain sequence into the movie
-laughs-.

(Side note: I think this was 'Gulliver's Space Travel', in which
Miyazaki-San added the ending totally different from the script -
Ryo.)

M: Well, that's because when I asked 'How about doing this?', I
was told 'Oh, sure'... -laughs-

T: Well, that was the situation.  However, if everyone just brings
his/her own ideas in, there will be no consistency, so the main
staff have to have tight control.  If we just expand a scene
freely, thinking it'll be enough if this scene looks great, there
will be no consistency throughout the film.  That was one of the
reasons for Disney's decline.  So, the director's control is also
important.

M: And if you do it, you have to do it within the time frame.
It's absurd if you can't finish your work on time even if you are
allowed to incorporate various ideas of your own.  That's your
responsibility.  So, you can't do it unless you are trusted.
Otherwise, people will think you are just a brat talking nonsense.
(People will think) you are just a big mouth.

(Side Note: interestingly, Takahata-San couldn't finish 'Grave of
the fireflies' on time ^^;; -Ryo)

T: But these days, that kind of thing rarely happens.  There are
some people who are willing to incorporate other people's
willingness in that manner, if possible, but it's difficult.  In
many cases, directors just refuse.  I'm not sure since I didn't
hear this from the director's side.  I guess the director's pride
won't allow it.

M: But those who care about their own pride aren't good -laughs-.
The worst ones say something like 'Obey me, I'm the director'.
That kind of person can't listen to other people's suggestions.
He feels as if his whole self is rejected.

T: The problem is that you can't have a good ensemble.

M: For example, if the main staff are weak, and the e-konte are
totally useless, but the animators are talented or motivated, it's
gonna be a disaster.  In that case, there are two ways.  Either
you enjoy yourself animating what you want, or you just proceed
and finish working as scheduled.

T: When they aren't motivated, the work progresses really quickly.
The best way to guarantee finishing within the schedule is if the
staff members never get motivated at all.

M: But if they don't get motivated, they won't work at all, so you
need a certain balance.

T: But the first case could be possible.  You can create a great
fun movie with a lot of fun parts.

(Note: In Japanese, we say 'fun like toppled toy box'.  I think it
implies many toys are scattered around and kids can have a lot of
fun, but I can't think up a good English translation for this. -
Ryo)

Everyone can offer his/her own ideas and can change (the
direction), having fun.  I can understand why Disney, in a certain
period, took this approach.


'Should young people get embarrassed?'

-That kind of thing (i.e., incorporating other people's ideas) was
possible at Toei Doga, but what was the situation like when you
went outside (of Toei Doga)?

T: Before we quit Toei Doga, the era of TV animation had started,
and it brought a sort of 'director-centralism' in, because there
was no time to do such things.  Since the air date was given, we
had to make it in a short time.  In this situation, the power
started to be concentrated in the director.  Of course, I think
there were people who opposed to it.

M: To make a number of anime, many people were promoted
prematurely to directors, and actually, people who had never
directed became directors. So, many odd things happened, but at
the same time, animators were also promoted prematurely, so every
Jack had his Jill -laughs-.  It was really a stupid time.

T: Well, there was also a positive side to it.  Everyone was able
to have actual experiences in various things.  Because of the
promotion, at least those who wanted to be directors could direct,
and those who wanted to be animators could animate.  Which meant
that one could know about oneself.  There was a lot of this trial-
and-error.  Well, you get embarrassed enormously, but those who
can take it as an embarrassment will make progress because of it.
So there were many opportunities for that.  The chances to get
embarrassed were increased.
It's totally opposite in present day Ghibli.  Rookies have no
chance to get embarrassed (by making mistakes).

M: There are many check systems among staff.

T: Regardless of whether it was a good era or not, I feel that we
need to incorporate, in some form, the chaos we had in the
beginning of the
TV anime era.

- But facing Miyazaki and Takahata, don't young people get
intimidated, or feel pressure?

T: Well, while you are embarrassing yourself in such works as TV,
you don't have the time to get intimidated.  But if you are chosen
by Miya-San to direct a so-called Ghibli anime, I think you feel
pressure because there is this 'Ghibli brand', and you think you
have to make something worth that name.

M: They get pressured not because of our demands.  Rather, they
put pressure on themselves.  In many cases, people create pressure
on their own by making Ghibli a hypothetical enemy, or by
appreciating Ghibli too much.  So, they run away when I say 'There
is an interesting project.  Won't you direct it?'.

T: Well, after all, Miyazaki Hayao is such a formidable figure.
You get intimidated if you think about what Miya-san will say
about it.

M: I wanted to let my assistants do (the direction), but when I
told them 'do this', everyone ran away -laughs-.  On the other
hand, there are people who come to us and say 'let *me* do this',
but actually, that kind of person isn't good.  We can trust better
those who know themselves and think that directing isn't that
easy.  We need to meet someone who overcame that and still wants
to direct in one level higher.  (We have to meet) someone on whom
we can stake (a project?) even if Ghibli would go bankrupt.

T: It's better if they assert themselves in some tangible way.  I
think we were like that.  Miya-San didn't say 'let me do this',
but, he asserted himself really strongly (through his work).  If
there is someone who gets our attention like that, we may be able
to stake (a project?) on him/her.

M: It's no good even if we make them want to do it.  Paku-San says
'tell your opinion', but if they do, he fires back at them.  Three
times, ten times more.  They get stupefied, get dizzy, not knowing
what to do.
This era might not have the difficulties which our era had, but
there are other difficulties.  It needs a huge violent courage for
new people to come out with what they want to express.  In our
case, we can say that it wasn't just self-display, but it was
easier for us to be assertive because of many things such as the
atmosphere of the time or the situation which animation was in.

-But, wasn't Toei Doga when you two were there the best
environment in Japan at that time?

M: There was no best or worst.  There was nothing to compare with
-laughs-.  I myself thought it was the worst place.

T: For the young people these days, we have a policy to let them
go knight-errant (outside of Ghibli).  Not raising them here, but
letting them go outside to expose them to the roughness of the
outside world.  Thinking back, we experienced this kind of
roughness.  We did crazy works in the crazy era.  If you are here,
you can't do crazy works.  So, people who once were here went
outside.  Maybe, there will be an opportunity for them to come
back someday.

M: I think Ghibli is like this: Ghibli is a torso.  If we have a
firm torso, you can put arms, a head, or legs on it, but without a
torso, you can't do good work just with arms or heads.  Ghibli is
basically a torso.  So, if a good head comes, we can have a good
project.  If a good hand comes, the hand can do good work as it
pleases.  In Ghibli, there are honest and patient staff members
who support the torso.  But they are not a head.

T: In that example, we have Miyazaki Hayao as a head, and we have
Ghibli as we know now.  We had ten years of Ghibli in such a form.
In the future, if another head comes, we can still show the very
strong competence as a torso, compared to other studios.  Though I
heard this story of Ghibli being a torso for the first time here -
laughs-.

M: I told Oshii Mamoru (the director of 'Uruseiyatsura 2' and
'Patolabor'. He is considered to be one of the prominent directors
in the young generation) many times that he should work at Ghibli.
We even had a concrete project once (a project called 'Anchor').
But, every time, he declines, making excuses. He seems to fear
that the animators, like a bunch of nagging relatives, will peck
him all over, and give him a hard time -laughs-.

T: No, not just that.  Not just about the torso.  He fears even if
he became a head, there would be another head attached right next
to it, called Miyazaki
-laughs-.

M: I won't meddle too much -laughs-.  That's not fair, Paku-San,
you are forgetting about yourself.

T: But after all, Miya-San is the one who makes Ghibli.  So his
presence is a huge one.

M: I myself am not aware of it.

T: Maybe he isn't aware of it, but it is so.


'In the Beginning, There was Mr. Tokuma'

-Let's move on to the story of how Ghibli was created.

T: First, Tokuma Shoten (Tokuma Publishing Co.,) had a magazine
called 'Animage', and Miyazaki-San was writing the manga
'Nausicaa' for it. Of course there were people who paid attention
to it even back then, but it was a huge gamble to make an
animation based on it.  After all, compared to other manga
writers, Miyazaki Hayao wasn't famous or anything.  And Tokuma
Shoten had no know-how, no studio, nothing.  So what were we to
do?
We were confronted by a situation which was totally different from
the
one we grew up in.  We had a project to do, and we had a head,
Miyazaki Hayao, but nothing else.  So, we had no choice other than
forming a new studio.
So, after some considerations, we decided to work with a studio
called Topcraft.  However, I asserted that if Tokuma Shoten was
seriously going to produce animation in Japan, we had to do it
responsibly, with a long term view, not just doing it when we had
a project, renting some studio and then disbanding it (after the
project has completed).  So, it was decided to form Ghibli.  I
persuaded Hara-San (Hara Toru, the president of then Topcraft.  He
became the CEO of Ghibli) to come, and I dumped all the operation
(of Ghibli) on him, Miya-San, and Suzuki-San (Suzuki Toshio, the
former chief editor of Animage.  He has been the producer of
Ghibli movies, and an officer of Ghibli).  Though I guess it was
an unfair thing to do.

M: In the beginning, we were planning to disband (the studio) once
we finished the project, and if we got another project, then we
would gather staff members again, but we would at least keep the
place.  Usually, an organization gets stagnated after three years
or three projects, so I was saying 'Three years, Three projects'.
So, once we had made three projects, we changed the organization
little by little.  We changed it so that we could guarantee the
livelihood of animators with fixed pay, based on the decision that
we would keep making (anime).  It was totally opposite to the
direction the anime industry was heading, and it meant we had to
take risks, but it was possible because we had a person like Mr.
Tokuma (Tokuma Yoshiyasu, the president of Tokuma Shoten) who said
'Go!' as he's always been saying.

T: In a sense, it's largely due to the fact that it's a publishing
company.  And of course Mr. Tokuma, in particular, is a large part
of it.  It's the job of publishing companies to cooperate with
writers, so they respect writers and stake (the future?) on them.
I think they have that kind of willingness (to cooperate).

M: Tokuma Shoten had such an atmosphere that they respected
writers.  But, the movie industry is filled with people who find
satisfaction in finding out how successfully they can manipulate
the old-hands into doing what they want, and there are many people
who got burned (in the movie industry), so they wouldn't let us
make (what we want) so easily.  Another thing is the presence of
Producer Suzuki (Toshio).  Although he himself doesn't come out in
public, he is a baby boomer who loves to manipulate the general
public -laughs-, and his contribution has been enormous.  If it
weren't for him, there wouldn't be a Ghibli.

T: 'Totoro' and 'Grave' were double billed, and we were often
told, 'We felt so good when we finished watching 'Totoro', but we
were thrown into the abyss by 'Grave''.  But, we had no choice
other than combining these two films.  It was made possible only
through Suzuki-San and others' maneuvering.  After making
'Nausicaa' and 'Laputa', Tokuma Shoten would've been happier if we
had made more of these kinds of films, and they didn't feel that
they knew what to do with something like the monsters in
Tokorozawa (the place where 'Totoro' was supposed to take place,
where Miyazai-San lives).  On the other hand, Shinchosha (the
publishing company who published the novel and produced the anime
version of 'Grave') wanted to learn how to make animation.  So,
Suzuki-San and others contacted their friends at Shinchosha and
promoted this project ('Grave').  Then, the president of
Shinchosha finally decided to go ahead with it.  To Shinchosha,
Tokuma Shoten pretended that they were going to make 'Totoro', but
in truth, they hadn't decided yet, I think -laughs-.

(Side Note: 'Totoro' was produced by (i.e., paid by) Tokuma, and
'Grave' was produced by Shinchosha.  Tokuma couldn't afford to
produce the both, but wasn't sure if 'Totoro' alone could attract
enough audience, so they decided to cooperate with Shinchosha and
put 'Totoro' and 'Grave' together. -Ryo)

M: When Tokuma Shoten estimated (the return) of 'Totoro' and
'Grave', they reached the inevitable conclusion that each one
would lose 50 million Yen.  President Tokuma said, then, 'We are
going to be giving Shinchosha some trouble'.  He is the kind of
person who says such things -laughs-.  But they were prepared (to
take this loss), and the president of Shinchosha, the ninety-some
year old prestigious publishing company, the company, older than
Tokuma Shoten, called (Tokuma) personally, and that made (Tokuma)
decide 'let's do it'.  I thought that was a miracle.  In the end,
they both made a profit, though.

T: To be more precise, they made a profit only later.  We couldn't
make money through the theater release.  It took the production
costs for two films, but we only earned for one.

M: It takes a long time to recover (the investment).  But in that
case, we have no choice but to think that we are going to recover
the investment and make some plus in the end, no matter how much
trouble we cause the studio at that time.  After all, we are
always causing trouble (for the studio)-laughs-.

T: Well, we were lucky, but if I can be so bold, Ghibli is the
place where a just argument wins.  Up to now, I think we can show
that if you do the work as good as you possibly can, in a
straightforward way, you can survive.

- Now, looking back, you may be able to think that way, but when
Miyazaki-San was the director and Takahata-San was the producer,
as in 'Nausicaa' or 'Laputa', wasn't there a time when you
couldn't follow the just argument?

T: Including Producer Suzuki, we are the kind of people who can't
think in any other way.  So, we were too inexperienced to think
things like 'This is the way it is, we can't have our way'.  I had
never produced a film before that.  I didn't even think I could.
So, we had no choice but to push straight.

M: So, we don't choose a project by thinking 'Among the various
choices we have, this one has the best chance to make money',
rather, it's just that there is no other choice -laughs-.  In
truth, we can't do anything other than doing that.  It's always
been so.  So, as I always say, even if I have a plan, a movie will
turn out to be the movie (as it is), and I just follow behind it
since I have no choice.  I think that's closer to what actually
happens.  Something we didn't expect inevitably happens, and we
end up deceiving those who are paying money.  It's the same with
'Mimi wo Sumaseba'.  We gave it such weird copy as 'Kasakushohin
(a fine small work) series' which doesn't make any sense
anyway.... -laughs-
And then, we decided that we would take this opportunity to do
various experiments with it, so it ended up being a big fuss.  For
example,
we used Digital Dolby in 'Mimi', but we learned that doing it in
Japan is quite an adventure.  You know, it isn't customary to
spend much time and money during post production on the sound
recording in Japanese movies.  We didn't have that custom either,
so we always drew pictures up to the time limit, and we put sounds
to it in the minimum time.  So, this time, the time needed for
recording just skyrocketed.

T: It is so, but in other words, it just happened that way by
force of circumstances.  We have to pursue what we start to the
end.  Of course there are restrictions to the schedule and the
production costs, so we can't do everything we want, but this
Dolby thing also, it just happened that way.  Usually, if you do
something unusual, you make it a sales point, and advertise
upfront that you are using many CGs and digital compositions, but
that's not a good thing to do.  You just do it by force of
circumstances, and you use trial-and-error, and it becomes
something. Then, you can use it in a really effective way.  You
can do it in a calm state of mind, and Ghibli is the place where
we are allowed to do that.


'Can Ghibli Survive?'

T: When you face a difficulty at work, how do you cope with it?
There are various difficulties such as delays in the schedule or
overspending, but will you try to force things down to the minus
direction?  Or, this is the 'force of circumstances' thing, but if
the budget is the problem, will you think up a way to recover more
money than you spend, or a way to have people invest more?
Producer Suzuki is a person who chooses the latter way, and he
always tries to solve problems in an aggressive way.  This is how
we've been working.

-There is such an excellent combination (of people) as the
foundation of Ghibli, but the young people who are growing right
now have to make their talents break through by having their
personalities collide with each other, and they get polished by
that.

M: It's the same with Paku-San, but when we were young, when we
were making movies without thinking who's the director or who's
what, we didn't discuss so much.  We strongly felt that we were in
it together, so there wasn't much need for examining things one by
one.

T: That's important.  Having lively discussions among staff
members often looks cool, but it isn't.  You have to finish those
kinds of things before that.  You have to finish (such things)
before you start (making a film).

M: Maybe it was till a certain age, but we had such experiences.
If three people get together, it can be powerful.  I said so
before, but if you get together and start talking, it won't be
powerful.  You can't do that unless you have a strong core.  When
Paku- San said 'Let's do Heidi', I was like 'Heh? Heidi?' -laughs-
.  I was like, 'Well, if you insist, I'll do it....'  So, I didn't
think that I wanted to direct or anything.  So, it wasn't like
'let me do this', instead, it was like 'I'll do this, so you take
care of that'.  We clearly knew what we had to do, rather than
just talking.

T: We grew up that way, and we've been doing things that way.  We
have some staff members who have been with us since the beginning,
and we have new staff members joining us one after another.  I
feel that it may be hard for the next generation.  I mean, by
making the younger generation work for our projects, we may be
consuming most of what they have, and because of that, they might
not be able to have what they need to construct their own
(projects)....

M: Frankly, we used them up.  It's like we ate them.  I feel
guilty about them...  We've known those who are now in their
thirties since the time they were eighteen or twenty, but it's
like when we finish, they'll also finish.

T: No, it isn't -laughs-.

M: We are calling them Nakama, but it's more vague.  It's not like
we've been together for a long time.  We happen to be together,
and happen to be looking in the same direction at one point in
time.  It's Nakama in that sense.  It's not like a relationship
where we'll go along with them all the way no matter how terrible
the mistakes they make.

-So, young people have to be careful not to be eaten if they work
with Miyazaki-San or Takahata-San.

M: Well, if they were eaten, that would still be fine.  What would
they do if they weren't eaten?  They might be doing more
meaningless things -laughs-.  But if a really talented young staff
member emerges, s/he may be someone who is really detestable.  I
feel it'll be someone who makes us feel 'What an arrogant S.O.B!'
-laughs-.

T: I think about Miyazaki Hayao.  I think many things such as: if
he had started directing much earlier, he could have made more
masterpieces.  I reflect, for example, that I might have done
disservice to him by making him work with me.  But, in the end, I
have to think positively that the experience was useful for him -
laughs-.

M: Once, someone told me that if I hadn't met Takahata-San, I
could have done many more works.  I couldn't understand what he
meant.  Well, I understood much later, but I still feel that was a
foolish thing to say. Because I had no complaint about being an
animator.  If I thought about my work at such a level as
expressing myself in such a form, or self-display, or showing my
personality, I think I could have only done a worse job. Now,
people think of Ghibli as the mainstream establishment.  But it's
been the most adventurous place.  'Mimi' is based on a Shojo
(girl's) manga.  Even inside, there are some people who wonder
`why (do) a Shojo manga now', and we don't know how it will work
out until we open the film, but this is a very ambitious project.
To realize this (project), though we didn't mean to, we ended up
telling many lies such as 'Kasakushohin' -laughs-.  I think we've
been adventurous every time we've chosen a project.

(Side Note: 'Kasakushohin (a fine small work)' is a sort of copy
for 'Mimi'.  I guess it was to tell the sponsors that this was
going to be a down-to-earth small project, but it became such a
big project as we know. -Ryo)

T: So, we aren't choosing them in a way people would say 'Ghibli,
again?'.  I think we've been doing projects that seem difficult to
make successfully. We are not choosing them from the choices which
we think are absolutely safe to do (in terms of making money).

M: I've been saying 'Don't think that Ghibli is a stable company.
Don't get comfortable just because you are working for Ghibli.
Don't have loyalty toward the company'.  If one project goes down,
Ghibli would go down, too.  However, it's commonsense to improve
the work environment if you make money.  It's not right to suck up
the profit just because you are taking the risk.  But it's
absolutely wrong to think that if you just improve the work
environment, you can make a good work.  A good work can be born
even in the worst work environment.  So, I'm not going to confuse
those.  So, I don't feel like 'Ghibli forever' like in the case of
the Giants. (Tokyo Giants is a baseball team which is expected to
win always. When a famous player retired, he said 'Giants
forever!'.)  I'm telling my staff members that if they are
competent, they can work anywhere.
About the high cost, while it's a necessary condition to raise the
quality, it limits our options, and as Paku-San said, it deprives
the young people of the chance to get embarrassed.  For example,
we created the in-between check system, but I want to change it.
(If we change it,) Then, cel painters would complain that they
can't paint such stuff.  Then it would strike the home of the
person who drew it, and s/he would be more careful next time.  If
such things happen, I think there will be a lively human
communication among the different functions.  But it's difficult
to tear the division of labor down once it got created.  A system
is supposed to be changed along with the people who are in it.
Otherwise, its arteries get hardened.

T: We created the system as the way to smoothly carry out the
tasks we had to do at that point in time.

M: We've been choosing projects very roughly.  Distributors and
investors lost their color every time they saw the first screening
of each film.  Of course, we ourselves were the ones who were
worried most, but I heard that Toho (the company who distributes
Ghibli movies in Japan) had an emergency conference every time.
(To talk about) Whether they should cut the number of the theaters
-laughs-.  Fortunately, Ghibli movies are doing well right now,
but it's possible that they won't in the future.  But still, we
don't want to choose a project based on the prospect of whether it
would do well or not.

-What do you think about the future of Ghibli?

M: Well, it doesn't matter if it goes bankrupt tomorrow -laughs-.
It's no use to think about such things.

T: Well, it does matter.

M: I shouldn't have much time left.  I don't want to finish being
glued to a desk like this.
I went to Yaku Island the other day, and it was the best.  I want
to live there for a year while I'm still able to walk around the
mountains -laughs-. There should be a few clear days no matter how
rainy it is, if I stay there for a year.

(Side Note: Miya-San went to the island for the location hunting
for 'Mononokehime'.  The island is famous for its big trees and
constant rain. -Ryo)

T: Yes, we are now in preparation for the next film, so we have no
choice but to keep going.

M: Those who never said anything about green started feeling (the
green is) great while they were walking the mountain.  When they
went location hunting, they were overwhelmed, and their hands were
shaking.

T: They seem to have realized the difference between looking at
beautiful green in pictures and actually going there and being
surrounded by green, and I think that's good for them.  We've been
trying to create a realistic world or the feeling of presence with
animation.   But, the world in images is totally different from
reality.  I started feeling so.  I wonder what the meaning of
creating realistic images is.

M: After all, I think we are staying at the level of simple
naturalism.

T: I think it'll be interesting if something new emerges and
breaks it down.

M: There are countless issues.  The ones who have to shoulder
these issues are not us, but those who are destined to work,
utilizing this place.  After all, we can't say anything other than
we did as we pleased -laughs-.

T: He says so, but I think he is still going to work hard -laughs-
.  The next Ghibli film is up to Miya-San, after all.

(At Studio Ghibli, May 29th, 1995)